tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post5161456265499714225..comments2024-03-12T07:00:44.143-04:00Comments on CHILDMYTHS: The Myth About Crawling Creeps In AgainJean Mercerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-75543661826591023302018-05-22T19:23:11.337-04:002018-05-22T19:23:11.337-04:00Thanks so much-- we all have to remind ourselves ...Thanks so much-- we all have to remind ourselves to pay attention and not just fall for assertions!Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-21564529354384410172018-05-22T13:43:37.979-04:002018-05-22T13:43:37.979-04:00Hi,
here a teacher with a MSC in Neuroscience and...Hi, <br />here a teacher with a MSC in Neuroscience and Education, and I still have to thoroughly research subjects that smell like myths because we live in this (great/horrible) abundance of information. Thank you for the blogg. Fantastic place. Some of us are always looking for evidence, not denying that we will always have to keep on researching, always updating, always admitting that the evidence in a specific moment was not perfectly interpreted....But hey, scientific method is the name of our best tool for as community, differentiating what might be evidence from what seems to be anecdotal. Thank you for your work! <br />Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06074689377439348711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-21809116239301975612017-02-03T16:52:06.982-05:002017-02-03T16:52:06.982-05:00If someone has trouble crawling, practicing crawli...If someone has trouble crawling, practicing crawling will help them crawl better. If they crawl poorly because of muscle weakness, crawling may help strengthen muscles and therefore help prepare the person for other movement abilities. But, if they already crawl and walk perfectly well, crawling practice is pointless and certainly will not solve unrelated problems like autism.<br /><br />If crawling is not an effective treatment for a problem, why recommend it at all, even as a part of a therapeutic program? Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-36155626775861945732017-02-03T14:00:46.645-05:002017-02-03T14:00:46.645-05:00In the article you allude that motor movement does...In the article you allude that motor movement does not have an effect on the brain (that is like the moon jumping over the cow!). But, now, here deep in the comments you state that you would "never deny" that movement strengthens neuromuscular connections. So, are you saying that you believe that only the connection between muscle and nerve are strengthened and not the rest of the pathway to the brain? Otherwise, what is your basis for implying that the brain is unchanged by the experience of actively moving? I agree that no movement therapy is a cure for any medical diagnosis such as autism and that it is unethical to claim this. However, I do think you are essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater in your original statement that the importance of crawling is a myth. You make it seem that anyone who incorporates crawling as an activity in their therapeutic treatment is wrong, even going so far as to say that crawling is "humiliating" and you would report someone who recommends it to the ethics committee without knowing the actuality of that person's whole treatment plan or therapeutic reasoning. When, from what I am gleaning from your above statement, it now appears that you are saying that anyone selling crawling as THE therapeutic treatment to CURE a medical diagnosis is wrong and unethical. If that is actually your position, I would agree, I just wish this was stated much more clearly in your original article.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05103955519660042103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-50353739111081580022016-07-25T23:04:32.274-04:002016-07-25T23:04:32.274-04:00JeremyDyen, I would like to know more about IAHP a...JeremyDyen, I would like to know more about IAHP and the criticism that it is receiving please.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-67582992300784296812016-07-08T09:08:31.192-04:002016-07-08T09:08:31.192-04:00Thanks so much for this example and your comments!...Thanks so much for this example and your comments! Perhaps readers will be open to this opinion from "one who has been there". I would like to point out how easy it can be to describe a mechanism that MIGHT cause an outcome, and imply that the existence of a mechanism is evidence for a treatment.But no, folks, we need evidence that the treatment DOES have the posited effect. Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-9065966649013138652016-07-08T01:04:01.953-04:002016-07-08T01:04:01.953-04:00I'm coming into this discussion months/years l...I'm coming into this discussion months/years late only because a proponent (employee?) and gushing parent recently sent me a facebook message<br />outlining the wondrous claims of the Family Hope Center.<br /><br />I immediately smelled the woo, and began searching the net for<br />parental reviews and complaints regarding this outfit.<br /><br />In doing so, I discovered a very interesting pattern of "anonymous"<br />posters all over the net who seem to jump in at a moment's notice to<br />defend the FHC as soon as a whiff of suspicion is raised about it. I suspect<br />these people (or bots?) are trying to use neuro linguistic programming as well,<br />based on some of their tactics. The psychology behind some of their posts is<br />very interesting indeed.<br /><br />As the parent of two autistic children and one<br />who has, in the past been gullible and fallen prey to hope sellers,<br />I wouldn't go near the FHC. Any company which cold calls parents off<br />the internet to attend its very pricey seminars and treatment plans<br />and does so with absolutely no evidence to back it up is of no interest<br />to me.<br /><br />Let's all remember that this is the internet, and to you and me, it's simply<br />words on a page. Anyone can present themselves as a parent who<br />had wondrous success with the FHC. Those stories of success can be couched<br />in a most seemingly intelligent and persuasive manner. But still, they are just words.<br />You will never meet the writer of those words. I not above that still no evidence is forthcoming<br />from the poster who valiantly argued her point. She was able to discuss biomedical interventions<br />for autism (though carnitine use for autism has now been debunked). Thus, her words may sound<br />plausible to the more proactive parents out there. Not this one though. Been there done that.<br />Delacato method is bunkum. Left brain right brain is bunkum. Autism has no known etiology.<br />If the Family Hope Center had any efficacy the world would be paying attention and they wouldn't<br />have to rely on cold calls to faceless parents on the internet. It's laughable.<br /><br />It's the oldest trick in the book. Save yourself some money and turn on day time<br />television and watch Christian born again tv. It's the same old tired stuff.<br /><br />Renee Lamothe<br />Mom to 3<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-85504589932253937672016-03-17T10:44:49.253-04:002016-03-17T10:44:49.253-04:00Thanks so much for these kind words!Thanks so much for these kind words!Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-4333873057053547962016-03-17T05:07:54.202-04:002016-03-17T05:07:54.202-04:00I am totally loving this blog and do very much agr...I am totally loving this blog and do very much agree with your statement of putting evidence over theory! There are so many theories around that seem to make sense (and especially when it comes to child development they are always mixed with so much emotional pressure), but if you ask for evidence you only hear anecdotes. Thanks for your effort!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-67540104136466034282015-12-09T10:50:02.128-05:002015-12-09T10:50:02.128-05:00Sure, there are plenty of feedback mechanisms, and...Sure, there are plenty of feedback mechanisms, and if people stated that the baby who crawls (or moves in any way) strengthens related neuromuscular connections, I would never deny this. The problem here is that crawling is claimed to change brain connections in ways that correct autism or other developmental problems, or that cure traumatic brain damage-- not only that crawling does this, but that no other movement pattern does. You must see the problem here-- we're not just talking about feedback for a particular neuromuscular connection, which could work well e.g. for a limb with peripheral nerve damage, but about a much broader effect on the brain and cognitive functioning. Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-45913445347913530022015-12-09T10:29:40.679-05:002015-12-09T10:29:40.679-05:00Ihave a PhD in behavioral neuroscience and I am tr...Ihave a PhD in behavioral neuroscience and I am trying to understand your example of - "The logic is this: activity of the left hemisphere causes the right hand to move, therefore the movement of the right hand causes activity in the LH. To put it more generally, this statement is that if A causes B, B causes A." Now if someone were moving another persons hand...then no there would be limited to no stimulation of the motor cortex. But if a baby is encouraged to move a hand, then yes cortical neurons in the motor area are being stimulated. And there are other complications- if someone is happy they smile, we know this. Motor neurons send an action potential to the orbicularis oris and many other muscles in smiling. However- research has also found that if you smile, your move improves. Their are all sorts of feedback mechanisms.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09948635138113436423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-23845964846778165752015-09-24T10:59:49.259-04:002015-09-24T10:59:49.259-04:00Can you be more specific about the empirical suppo...Can you be more specific about the empirical support for the benefits of crawling?Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-23790196195362879772015-09-23T21:30:30.317-04:002015-09-23T21:30:30.317-04:00Jean, you need to update yourself on motor miles...Jean, you need to update yourself on motor milestones and coordination milestones. you will fight to make your point hear until your blue in the face. You do not have me convinced. First....do you even work with children? You said "down syndrome babies.." and you lost me. Ignorant and selfish. These parents are giving you testimony and there is plenty of support and research for crawling and it's benefits. And there are no such things as down syndrome babies......they have names and the correct way to refer to a child or anyone with a different ability or a diagnosis is to say a baby diagnosed with down syndrome. It does not define the baby. Research that!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-10125228990516107862015-06-23T09:52:10.277-04:002015-06-23T09:52:10.277-04:00The difficulty with everything you say here is tha...The difficulty with everything you say here is that the fact that something could happen does not mean that it does happen. In addition, we have the problem that when two things occur together, that in itself does not give evidence that one of them caused the other-- e.g., if better brain functioning and motor activity go together, that does not demonstrate that the activity causes the improved brain functioning.<br /><br />So far, the American Academy of Pediatrics has twice passed resolutions rejecting the use of patterning and related exercise routines like crawling. They did this because the evidence does not show that these methods are effective.<br /><br />I might also point out that men's and women's brain functions have overlapping distributions, so evidence derived from those does not provide a very good foundation for thinking about how an individual brain works. <br /><br />You might also want to read my comments at http://childmyths.blogspot.com/2015/06/why-cant-they-tell-which-patient-will.html, about what needs to be known before this kind of individual decision can be made. Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-14709120874239628042015-06-22T10:06:28.114-04:002015-06-22T10:06:28.114-04:00Of course what you say is a possibility-- there ar...Of course what you say is a possibility-- there are many possibilities/hypotheses. But the fact that you can think of a possible cause doesn't mean that that cause is in operation. You need to have empirical support in order to demonstrate that one thing causes another. <br /><br />The kind of information you were given in your education class stressed "learning styles"-- and there is no good support for those,either. You should read Daniel Willingham on this. He wrote some good pieces in American Educator several years ago.<br /><br />It's all too easy to let theory outrun evidence, and that's what has happened for both learning styles and interhemispheric connections. But even if it hadn't done this, there would still be no evidence that crawling shapes the brain, rather than vice-versa. Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-16587106878221935872015-06-21T09:52:55.268-04:002015-06-21T09:52:55.268-04:00Your point is well taken, that parents get to make...Your point is well taken, that parents get to make the decisions about their children's treatment. I'd add that it's their obligation to do this well-- using the maximum available information. That's why I have posted material about the evidence basis (or lack thereof) of patterning and crawling treatments.<br /><br />I'm glad your son is doing better, but I must point out that you have no way of knowing whether the improvement was the result of these various alternative treatments, of maturation, or of some other experience. You are attributing the improvement to specific alternative treatments when in fact there is no way for you to know which, if any, of them did anything. I offered some weak comparison groups, but you are offering none at all.<br /><br />You mention that at age 5 he could not skip or do jumping jacks. This is hardly surprising, as most boys this age cannot make these coordinated movements. I understand that the other problems you mention are very real, but it does not make much sense to focus on "disabilities" that are characteristic of an age group-- perhaps that's one reason why your pediatrician did not pay much attention.<br /><br />By the way, of course all these alternative practitioners explained problems as due to poor communication between hemispheres, without knowing what the others had said. This is the explanation most of them give for everything.Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-50003048525587267922014-05-23T17:30:49.062-04:002014-05-23T17:30:49.062-04:00I am gobsmacked at the idea that an actual psychol...I am gobsmacked at the idea that an actual psychologist is making this recommendation in 2014. Are you sure this person is a psychologist, as opposed to a psychotherapist? Not only do I question the person's credentials, if I knew who it was I would file an ethics complaint.<br /><br />Certainly, if your son doesn't mind crawling around, and if you don't mind delaying effective treatment, there's no harm in this. If your son finds it humiliating, that's an entirely different matter, and if you are concerned about the educational effects of further delaying reading, that too is a problem.<br /><br />Of course you are quite right that there has never been a randomized study in which some children were somehow prevented from crawling. The information we have comes from "natural experiments"-- for example, development in cultures that do not permit babies to crawl (e.g. traditional Bali), and development of children who because of physical handicaps never crawl or walk. In both these situations, reading develops along the lines typical among children who have crawling experience.<br /><br />I'll be interested to hear whether the exercises suggested turn out to be much like your "something ridiculous", which is in fact exactly the kind of thing that was recommended by Doman and Delcato way back when. <br /><br />As for body-mind-- if he couldn't hit a baseball, would you assume that he should practice reading more and that would help?Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-75867291343783927742014-05-23T14:59:56.215-04:002014-05-23T14:59:56.215-04:00I might add, that at this point I don't know w...I might add, that at this point I don't know what the exercises are that are being proposed, I merely posited something ridiculous for the sake of argument.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11999775052356413724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-80300632847862441452014-05-23T14:48:03.148-04:002014-05-23T14:48:03.148-04:00Well, the conversation is very interesting. A psy...Well, the conversation is very interesting. A psychologist that I've been sending my son to has attributed his inability to comprehend text to not crawling, which I didn't really dismiss due to the plausibility of their being a powerful mind-body connection. Although we haven't started the exercises she recommends, I will be moving forward with them for one simple reason; they cannot do any harm. If all I am requiring of my son is to crawl around on the floor for ten minutes twice a day, and there is the possibility that this could improve his situation, then I'm game. If it doesn't work, then we'll move on.<br /><br />As to the studies, I'm not sure how you could even set up a trial for this type of thing. Could a doctor even recommend that a group of parents prevent their children from crawling to discover the long term effects of skipping that stage of development. What sort of ethics board would approve the creation of such a control group, knowing that the experiment is being set up to test the possibility that not crawling retards cognitive development?<br /><br />Perhaps I am wrong though. Perhaps such a study has been done by the Nazis or Soviets that I don't know about and this is what you are basing your blog on.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11999775052356413724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-26947090944946615922014-03-09T09:46:22.781-04:002014-03-09T09:46:22.781-04:00By the way, the burden of proof is on supporters o...By the way, the burden of proof is on supporters of patterning, to show that it is safe and effective. It's not actually possible to show that something does not work, but in the absence of evidence that it works, the logical assumption is that it does not.Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-28775846098546189822014-03-09T09:42:51.974-04:002014-03-09T09:42:51.974-04:00Dear Jeremy-- I gather from Google that you are a...Dear Jeremy-- I gather from Google that you are a supporter of alternative medicine in general, so I don't suppose you really care whether there is or is not a serious evidence basis for a practice. But, in case that does concern you, perhaps you could cite for me a single thorough case study on the effect of patterning. I don't even ask for a study that controls for the effects of maturation, but I want to see a case study (not an anecdote or testimonial). Have you got one that you can name?Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-39716888778848189442014-03-08T22:33:34.457-05:002014-03-08T22:33:34.457-05:00I want to say one final thing Patterning. I'm...I want to say one final thing Patterning. I'm pretty sure that the studies "disproving" that patterning works only executed patterning a few hours a week for a few weeks. <br /><br />That is a very different model from those that recommend several hours a day (depending on the child) for anywhere from a few months to a few years.<br /><br />My analogy is this. <br /><br />If I wanted to become proficient at piano, or violin, or any instrument, could I do so in 3 weeks, with only a few hours of practice per week? <br /><br />Should I conclude that I just can't do it? Or is it possible it required more time per week and more weeks, or months or years (depending on my potential) to gain the fine motor facility necessary...and to gain the muscle memory?<br /><br />JeremyDyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16658011338463358825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-45542556895005139602014-03-08T22:10:55.904-05:002014-03-08T22:10:55.904-05:00(continued comment)
I think the person who wrote...(continued comment) <br /><br />I think the person who wrote the article you critiqued oversimplified. And you are oversimplifying too.<br />I have seen the scathing criticisms of the IAHP and Family Hope Center. They are not giving people false hope, which is very often the criticism. They are giving parents and children specific, simple and actionable plans, while the medical model (the very same model that you are touting) simply holds up their hands at those with Cerebral Palsy, Trisomy 21, etc., and says, "there's nothing we can do...this is it..." And then they act as if the family should accept that and deal with it psychologically...and any attempt to do something not recommended by the status quo of the medical model simply illustrates that the parents are in denial.<br /><br />Hello? People once believed the world was flat. They believed the Sun revolved around the Earth. <br /><br />The medical model is a Pathology ("this is it, now medicate or operate") model...while the Doman model, and that of the Family Hope center is based on Physiology ("use it or lose it").<br /><br />Finally, you say,<br />"the practice of “patterning”, goes back to about 1960 and is still advocated by the Institute for Human Potential in Philadelphia—despite two position statements of the American Academy of Pediatrics rejecting it. "<br /><br />Wow, so I should take whatever the American Academy of Pediatrics says as some kind of scientific proof? They are just statements; that's not science. Those are just people trying resistant to something that is not within their paradigm...and they are baffled and frustrated when people are fed up with a system that isn't always the best support for (brain injured) children.JeremyDyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16658011338463358825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-58138180790937131372014-03-08T22:10:24.275-05:002014-03-08T22:10:24.275-05:00Would you consider that the statements in the arti...Would you consider that the statements in the article you critique are perhaps not best representative of those who promote crawling.<br /><br />First, let's be clear: crawling is done on the stomach, while creeping is on hands and knees.<br /><br />Next, I believe you support the fact that each person is different, and each of us can be found on a spectrum from completely comatose to genius. Each person, from birth, has different needs, and gets from point A to point B (literally and figuratively) differently and at different stages. One child may seem not to crawl at all (although isn't it just a bit possible moms and dads don't remember that little Jimmy crawled, if even just a little bit?), and another may crawl a lot.<br /><br />I agree that parents shouldn't get freaked out if their child didn't crawl, especially if they are fine or even better than fine. Don't look back unless you have too.<br /><br />Some kids learn to ride bicycles without training wheels. others use them. Some kids figure out reading with little or no help. Others are "taught." <br /><br />Would you agree that if little Jimmy needs help learning to read, that it would be better to help him, rather than simply letting him figure it out, possible by age 15, possible not at all??<br /><br />So, if crawling and creeping (and several other sensory stimulations, etc that the Doman model recommends) help organize some children's brains neurologically, so that they read better, organize information better, learn better and are more physically capable, wouldn't it be worth doing? Or would it be better to let it go?<br /><br />And when we are talking about brain-injured children, would you argue it is better to just slap AFOs on them, let them spend their lives in wheel chairs, keep them on meds to seizures, perhaps let them continue to be neurologically blind? Should be just continue to spend tons of taxpayer money on Early Intervention, which amounts to very little progress? Or wouldn't it be better to be proactive and have your child reach best potential. <br /><br />I have seen it work with my own eyes. Kids who were told they will never walk...They will never see...They will be on meds for seizures their whole lives...I have seen them walk. They can see (not from crawling per se, but from months of therapy, starting with light reflex stimulation). They have gone from 20 seizures a week to 7 a year and are completely off of medication.<br /><br />You say <br />"They have also claimed that forcing school-age children to crawl would repair a range of problems from cerebral palsy to dyslexia. Not only does “patterning” not accomplish these goals, it costs families a good deal in terms of time, money, and other resources. I don’t doubt that “patterning” believers are sincere, but I do consider them deluded."<br /><br />But I have seen the results, from Autism to Cerebral Palsy. Real time put in and real progress. No study you provide me will take away from the results I have seen.JeremyDyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16658011338463358825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-66982954407897498302013-07-27T14:29:53.998-04:002013-07-27T14:29:53.998-04:00I don't doubt that crawling or any other unusu...I don't doubt that crawling or any other unusual mode of locomotion will work muscles differently and has the potential for altering posture and gait.<br /><br />BUT the point of my original post was to contradict the claim that crawling shaped brain development. I don't think you're claiming that your brain is different, are you?Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.com