tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post1183636853195584704..comments2024-03-12T07:00:44.143-04:00Comments on CHILDMYTHS: Having a Look at Love and LogicJean Mercerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-44535419883045251452015-07-26T10:40:24.442-04:002015-07-26T10:40:24.442-04:00Dear Jessica-- my strongest concern about L &...Dear Jessica-- my strongest concern about L & L is the claim that it is evidence-based, when it is not. I'm also concerned about the lack of quality control that has been reported to me by people who have received L & L training and then gone out to present seminars without guidance or feedback.<br /><br />The good things in L & L, like the offering of choices you mention, are common to almost all popular parenting books and programs. The bad things, like allowing children to suffer sometimes-serious consequences, are not. I notice in looking at Internet discussions these days that quite a few people are using "consequenced" to mean the same thing as "punished"-- whether they get this from L & L or not, I don't know, but if you read any of Foster Cline's work you can see that a heavy emphasis on authoritarianism and punishment is what he's offered since the 1980s. (This is of course welcome to quite a few parents.)<br /><br />Your point about the irresponsibility of charging so much, if they really think they can be of so much help, is well-taken-- but whatever they really think, this is a commercial enterprise that has been bought into by many a church and school system-- those organizations do the job of advertising L & L.<br /><br />Your public library has many parenting books (all the way back to Haim Ginnott) that give excellent parenting guidance without charge. For cases where children are really difficult to manage, individual treatments like parent-child interaction therapy (PCIT) have been shown to be of enormous help to those who need it (but regrettably are not available everywhere). Children whose behavior is really disturbed will probably not be "fixed" by L & L, and according to a few L & L trainers I have spoken to, may get referred for "holding therapy"-- I have no idea whether what they say is correct, of course.Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-58479433650353383232015-07-24T16:59:41.445-04:002015-07-24T16:59:41.445-04:00Hi Jean, I just finished the love and logic book I...Hi Jean, I just finished the love and logic book I rented from the local library and was researchin more about it when I found this blog post. First, I'd like to mention I am an RN with training that includes evaluating medical research, I also have a two year old girl. Now I have been researching various parenting methods from my pregnancy with my main goal of avoiding the pitfalls of my own childhood.<br /><br />While I was reading the book (Love and Logic: teaching children responsibility, 2006 e-book) I noticed they didn't quote research papers or other such material as most other books do. And I found this frustrating as I can't read the papers to see if I agree with the quality of the study and it's out comes. Also I expected a website, maybe even with a forum, we're there were expanded materials and examples for harder issues not covered in the book. Instead like you pointed out it read like a commercial.<br /><br />Now I would also like to point out that you were not very objective in your blog post, it is apparent from your comments on the actual live and logic principles that you did not make the effort to read at least the main book (which you could have obtained for free as I) as many of the things you point out about its falability were in fact explained in the book, leading you to make false assumptions about what they actually teach.<br /><br />Now I'd like to reiterate that I just now finished the book, I have not used the program, and I have not decided yet if I will, I just felt that while your blog brought light to some concerns with the program it also fell short of objectivity by the lack ofor effort out put into actually knowing what they advocate. <br /><br />As a final note, I would like to defend in part one of their practices, this is one I actually already use as a nurse and so am familiar with how to use it and why it works. That is, to give two options (to patient or child) both of which are acceptable to you and the other party. For example, I might ask my patient that is full care, would you like me to wash your face first or brush your teeth first? This give the patient some control over their body that they have lost due to paralysis, it also ensures that I don't loose my license for neglecting my patient. As I already have this habit from work I use it naturally on my daughter, I don't use it with "manipulation" in mind, rather with the spirit of "my child is her own person, she deserves dignity and respect". Anyway when I read their book I saw similarities to a nursing practice that allows us to give as much power to our patients as possible who are suffering from powerlessness, and like toddlers, other persons who have suffered a major loss of control on their life, become bitter, angry and withdrawn if you don't show them respect my relinquishing what control you can.<br /><br />And finally, my daughter is very well behaved as a 2 year old, she learned the word yah, months before no, and I rarely have a powerstruggle with her (namely that she must hold my hand in or near the road). And all I do in situations that I learned set off a tantrum is ahead of time think of how I would talk to my patient, namely how can I give her choices that will be acceptable to both of us.<br /><br />(Also I'd like to say that offering choices is really the only thing I do that's the same, their method of dicipline and letting consequences fall on a child are not my natural mode and I find their method inappropriate for the first year other than offering children choices that young in the name of teaching them how to make choices.)<br /><br />I would love to hear your thoughts after you read the book, as the commercialized it you really don't get the picture unless you do (which if they think their method is so golden I think is socially irresponsible of them as the most in need of parenting advice will also be those who can not pay 99$ for a seminar...)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14695924391245050371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-58087254695250909062014-09-23T14:20:39.844-04:002014-09-23T14:20:39.844-04:00Let me know if I can be of any more help. There ha...Let me know if I can be of any more help. There has been very little published about L&L and it manages to stay "underground" most of the time. There is some discussion in my 2003 book with Larry Sarner and Linda Rosa, "Attachment Therapy on Trial" (Praeger).<br /><br />I think your success with this will depend in part on whether the principal and school board think evidence-based methods are desirable... or whether they just respond viscerally to the marvelous name (what could be bad about love or logic) and to the unsupported claims. Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-12717856609022341872014-09-23T14:05:57.523-04:002014-09-23T14:05:57.523-04:00Dear Jean,
Thank you for this blog post about L&am...Dear Jean,<br />Thank you for this blog post about L&L; my daughter's elementary school has suddenly decided to implement it for all the 3-5th grade classrooms and I am horrified. I am trying to find resources to talk to the principal about it which is how I found your blog. The more I read the more unhappy I become, both as a parent and as a developmental psychologist. The involvement of Cline is especially troubling to me, but most of it is terrible, and what is good is hardly new, nor is it unique to their framework. roramichnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-14079046846446558802014-06-26T08:37:15.814-04:002014-06-26T08:37:15.814-04:00Thanks for the kind words-- and do keep in mind th...Thanks for the kind words-- and do keep in mind that there's a difference between saying that there is supporting research and actually having some. For example,L & L has some unpublished research showing that the parents liked it, but that's quite a bit different from peer-reviewed publications showing that the children's moods and behavior improved. <br /><br />I agree with you that L & L does not appear to consider the achievement of a sense of autonomy, either during the preschool period or the early teens. The choices offered are not real ones, and it's very easy for parents to equate "consequences" with punishment-- and let's not forget that when you're annoyed with a child, it's pretty gratifying to make them unhappy for a bit-- that's why we don't stop punishing, even though it doesn't work most of the time.<br /><br />Before I forget,there are some evidence-based programs that aren't listed on clearinghouses, just because they have never submitted any material-- so don't assume that if something is not on a clearinghouse, it doesn't have an evidence basis. I recently queried the California clearinghouse about their statements on Circle of Security, and they said OOPS and took the material down to re-work it. Jean Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14619393019771381980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2743746633913926150.post-38349914171413242162014-06-25T18:38:16.767-04:002014-06-25T18:38:16.767-04:00Very interesting, Jean! I especially appreciate th...Very interesting, Jean! I especially appreciate the clearinghouse link you provided. I'm definitely going to take a look at which programs have research to back their claims. <br /><br />It seems to me that perhaps Love and Logic is partially about finding a nice way to control your children. But it's still control and, in my non-expert opinion, that's not really helpful in the development of a child, except to enforce the idea that they can be overpowered. I have a 3.5 year old and trust me, my life would be so much easier if he would just listen and obey. But to what end? My life would be easier but what is he gaining? It's tough to be engaged in their development, it takes much more time but I'm hoping that taking the time to encourage him in developmentally appropriate ways will give him more confidence and self-control later on. I always appreciate your posts!Jessicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17671750945060377685noreply@blogger.com